Transcript of Exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra, with Christopher Wallis

Right here is the audio of this podcast

Michael Taft: Welcome to Deconstructing Your self, the podcast for meta-modern mutants taken with meditation, hardcore Dharma, neuroscience, the Ministry for the Future, predictive processing, Vajrayana, nonduality, awakening, and far, rather more. My identify is Michael Taft, your host on the podcast, and on this episode, I’m talking with Christopher Wallis. Christopher Wallis, also called Hareesh, is a Sanskritist and scholar-practitioner of classical Tantra, with thirty years of expertise. He was initiated by a standard Indian guru on the age of 16 and acquired training at yoga ashrams each in India and the West. He holds a number of levels, together with an MPhil in classical Indian religions from Oxford, and a PhD in Sanskrit from UC Berkeley. Hareesh is the creator of Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, Historical past, and Observe of a Timeless Custom, and in addition of The Recognition Sutras, a translation, and commentary on a 1000-year-old masterpiece on experiential recognition of oneself as a direct expression of common divine consciousness. And now, with out additional ado, I provide the episode that I name “Exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra, with Christopher Wallis,” aka Hareesh.

Michael Taft: Hareesh, Welcome to the Deconstructing Your self podcast.

Christopher Wallis: Thanks.

MT: I’m so glad to have you ever right here. In fact, most individuals in all probability in the event that they know of you’ll know you by your English identify, which is Christopher Wallis. However I’m, in fact going to name you Hareesh for this interview. 

So I first came upon about your work listening to via varied college students and fellow practitioners and so forth somewhat bit about it. However ultimately, I bought my arms on a duplicate of Tantra Illuminated, which was an incredible expertise, actually a cool ebook. However then I noticed you had one other one known as The Recognition Sutras. And it was like, Properly, I like Christopher Wallis’s books so let’s do that out. And I bought a duplicate of The Recognition Sutras and it fairly actually blew my thoughts. I had no thought such a textual content existed. From Tantra Illuminated, I had heard of it, and I knew that there have been Nondual Shaiva Tantra traditions. However nonetheless, I used to be unprepared for simply how wonderful that’s. 

So I’m simply going to throw it on the market and say, are you able to give a private background of what Nondual Shaiva Tantra is and what The Recognition Sutras are? Or the textual content is? I do know, that’s a big matter, however are you able to form of orient us to what we’re speaking about right here?

CW: Yeah, so I’ll summarize it this manner: Tantra is a religious motion, which started within the 5 tons of or the sixth century, in our Western calendar, and unfold all through all of South Asia, initially, in addition to later East Asia and Southeast Asia. And I name it a religious motion as a result of Tantra itself shouldn’t be a faith, however somewhat a method of doing faith, one would possibly say. So all the main religions in South Asia at the moment developed a tantric element, that’s to say, Tantra first appeared inside the faith known as Shaivism, which is the faith of Shiva and Shakti, now subsumed into Hinduism, and that’s been true for the final seven or eight hundred years. After which it propagated from there into Buddhism and Vaishnavism, and so forth. 

So all of those religions instantiated the Tantric element. That means to say, one could possibly be a practitioner of those religions in a non-Tantric mode or in a Tantric mode. So simply to be clear, one could possibly be a Buddhist or a Tantric Buddhist, and the distinction there concerned taking a form of greater degree of initiation that gave one entry to teachings and practices, that have been past the frequent core of faith. And what’s attention-grabbing is that the Tantric practices have a lot the identical kind in whichever non secular custom they seem. So though Buddhism and Shaivism, for instance, have many alternative doctrines, and philosophies, the Tantric practices themselves are generally even nearly equivalent in these two totally different non secular contexts. And that’s why it’s acceptable to consider Tantra as a religious motion that unfold via these varied religions.

MT: Let me simply interrupt for a second and say, as you understand, I’ve a background in Hindu Tantrism, and did numerous practices in that type. And I used to be shocked, actually, I used to be used to doing all these practices in Sanskrit and, and going via the order of practices and so forth. And once I bought concerned in Vajrayana, so Buddhist Tantra, I already understood the whole lot they have been doing, no less than on the ritual degree, possibly the philosophy behind it’s totally different, however the practices have been just about equivalent. I used to be simply shocked.

CW: Precisely. And over time, a few of these similarities grew to become somewhat bit much less apparent. There have been sure divergences within the final seven 800 years. However on the interval Tantra was flourishing–which was in regards to the yr 800 to 1200 of our calendar when it was maximally influential. Then yeah, we see the identical precise ritual applied sciences, not solely ritual, however by way of the interior yogas, the interior practices of visualization and deity yoga and all this form of factor have been actually equivalent, however with totally different names and types, proper? So, in fact, a Buddhist is invoking Vairocana, or Akshobhya, or a Buddhist Bodhisattva, and a Shaiva is invoking Shiva beneath varied Tantric names, or the goddess, you understand, so the names and types are totally different, however the precise apply, the ritual know-how, we’d say whether or not interior or outer, was the identical. 

So it’s fascinating, and Tantric research is a reasonably new subject. It’s been flourishing in educational circles for the final 50 years. And the outcomes of that analysis can be making its method little by little to the practitioner context, which is necessary as a result of numerous Vajrayana practitioners, for instance, didn’t even notice that there was this frequent ritual syntax as students generally name it. And that many of those Tantric practices, if not most, really derived from the Shaiva custom, to make use of the right Sanskrit adjective.

So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra is one thing that emerged within the mid-Ninth century. That’s to say, a type of Tantric apply that was embedded in a nondual philosophy. And this developed over time till it grew to become actually fairly a classy imaginative and prescient of actuality, by which all these deities that you just work with in Tantric apply weren’t seen anymore as supernatural individuals that one might transact with, however somewhat as icons of essence. The place every of the deities instantiated some facet of our common essence nature, that’s to say, of the character of consciousness itself. So the deities have been understood to specific features of that consciousness by which all aware beings are aware, that consciousness which instantiates as the notice of each sentient being. 

So Nondual Shaiva Tantra ultimately developed right into a kind which some students say is even atheistic within the sense that there isn’t a God separate from this consciousness. However this consciousness is known to be trans-individual, and subsequently, totally different from how folks would ordinarily conceive of consciousness. As a result of the abnormal perspective, you understand, it’s my consciousness versus your consciousness. And right here we’re understanding that there’s one trans-individual consciousness. The metaphor is typically used, that each one issues are seen by the sunshine of the solar, even when it’s at some take away, proper, as a result of if a lamp is lit, the gas of that lamp is the saved vitality of the solar. And so actually, all illumination is that very same basic vitality, and that’s used as a form of analogy for this imaginative and prescient of actuality, by which consciousness is singular. 

And but we nonetheless invoke these deities as a result of we don’t know ourselves in our true nature or in our deepest nature. And the deities serve to point to us in varied methods, one thing in regards to the vastness, the ability, the depth of that consciousness, which we’re, and which will get missed insofar as we’re recognized with the bodymind or different form of adventitious options of embodied expertise. 

So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra then ended up being fairly influential all the way in which down to the current day, even when the supply of the affect is now not remembered. So in trendy yoga, for instance, folks will invoke ideas that they don’t notice initially come from this custom of Nondual Shaiva Tantra: ideas of oneness; or the universality of consciousness; or the notion that the physique is the temple of the deity. It is a educating discovered on this custom.

MT: Yeah, let’s simply pause there for a second, due to course, we’re calling this Nondual Shaiva Tantra, and nowadays that will be lumped collectively within the basic class of Hinduism. However now we have one other huge nondual custom lumped collectively in Hinduism, which is, in fact, Advaita Vedanta. And each of those are “Hinduism.” And each of those are nondual, however in fact, they’re very totally different. And I’m simply curious if, in a quick method, you possibly can assist us to disambiguate these two types of nondual apply.

CW: Yeah, and it is a complicated query due to the truth that Advaita Vedanta, during the last eight hundred years, absorbed numerous Tantric affect. So the type of Vedanta that individuals have interaction with, no less than in India–setting apart for the second the generally known as Neo Advaita of Western practitioners. Indian Advaita Vedanta is deeply influenced by Tantra because it seems right this moment and has for tons of of years. And that obscures the basic variations between these two types of nonduality. 

And a thousand years in the past, these variations have been stark as a result of Advaita Vedanta posited a singular absolute consciousness known as Brahman, which didn’t have any Shakti. That’s to say, it didn’t have any dynamism. It didn’t do something, it was a pure witness, proper? So that is the way in which that the Tantrikas criticized it, they’d say, Oh, your notion of consciousness is devoid of Shakti, whereas, within the Tantric conception of consciousness, it has inherent powers, energies, or potencies known as Shaktis, such because the Energy of Bliss, the Energy of Realizing, the Energy of Will, the Energy of Appearing, and so forth. 

And so in line with Tantra then, the One Consciousness really does remodel itself into the substance of each expertise. And it is a dynamic course of by which it contracts into the type of an expertise, after which expands as soon as once more into its full potential, after which contracts into the type of the subsequent expertise, though this oscillation or spanda shouldn’t be absolutely perceptible to most aware brokers with out deep reflection. Whereas within the Vedantic view, there isn’t a exercise in consciousness, and the notion that there’s exercise is an phantasm. So, subsequently, the world shouldn’t be actual. It’s an look, very similar to a mirage in a desert or mistaking a rope for a snake, there really isn’t any snake and there by no means was a snake. It’s only a cognitive error. Whereas in Tantra, the world is actual. It’s an actual transformation of consciousness. It’s nothing however consciousness, and but it’s an actual transformation of consciousness.

So on this method, Tantrikas commemorated range, and Vedantans dismissed range, which is a reasonably stark distinction that had real-world implications, as a result of Tantrikas have been non-renunciate, as a result of they have been world-embracing of their perspective as a result of the whole lot on the earth is a type of the One and deserves to be commemorated as such. And for Vedantans, the One by no means really turns into something aside from its transcendent, absolute nature.

So it’s really a bit exhausting to clarify as a result of for the Tantrikas, within the course of by which consciousness transforms itself into the substance of any expertise, it by no means really loses its transcendent character. It doesn’t turn out to be much less divine by reworking itself into the substance of expertise. But it surely does create these prospects for misunderstanding. So though the whole lot that seems inside expertise is solely a special vibration of the identical One, due to range, we will mistake it for being one thing separate. 

So there’s some commonalities, but in addition some distinct variations that like I say, have largely been obscured. So if you happen to discuss to a contemporary practitioner in India, of Vedanta, they’re additionally studying Tantric texts, however calling them Vedantic texts, for instance, the Soundarya Lahari. They declare was written by the founding father of Advaita Vedanta, and so they declare it for themselves, though actually, it wasn’t written by Shankaracharya. It’s a Tantric textual content. That’s only one instance of what we’d name the Tantrikisation of Vedanta. 

MT: It’s so attention-grabbing, there’s really fairly an extended thread, we might go on there. And possibly we’ll do it later on this discuss. However thanks for making that distinction. So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra isn’t Advaita and particularly early on, they’re very totally different. So now you have been about to inform us about this specific textual content from the Nondual Shaiva Tantra custom, The Recognition Sutras.

CW: Sure, The Recognition Sutras. In Sanskrit, the title is Pratyabhijñā-hṛdaya, which accurately means the Coronary heart of the Teachings on Recognition. It’s a textual content that teaches this precise Tantric nondual doctrine that I used to be simply indicating, and it does use the phrase Advaita. Or it’s shut synonym, Advaya in Sanscrit. And actually, when this custom names itself, you understand what we’re calling Nondual Shaiva Tantra it calls itself Parameshwar Advaya-Vada, which suggests the way in which of the supreme nonduality of divinity. Okay, Parameshwar Advaya, which suggests Advaita, Vada. And what they imply by that expression is one thing very attention-grabbing that as a substitute of this nondual view that excludes duality and says duality is mistaken, it is a nondual view that features duality, as a legitimate degree of expertise, although, not an absolute one. So the distinction right here is that this nondual custom validates apply in a dualistic mode, as a form of stepping stone for many individuals to a more true or extra all-encompassing nondual consciousness. 

So if we put this in on a regular basis language that everybody can perceive, if you happen to expertise that the One common consciousness is one thing larger, wider, or deeper than your self, since you’re nonetheless recognized as a bodymind more often than not, then it is smart to venerate that as a better energy, to make use of a typical phrase, till you notice that that’s, actually, what you’re in your deepest nature. So in different phrases, on this nondual custom, you’re not speculated to faux it until you make it and faux to an expertise that you just don’t but have. And that truly, the worship of this greater energy can result in the conclusion that you just your self are that, in levels which can be fastidiously prescribed in that custom. That you simply begin to acknowledge that your individual consciousness has the very same capacities and potencies of this supposed greater energy, that you just’ve been venerating as one thing past your self. And so the sense of restricted or separate self dissolves into that better context, which you notice is what you might have, actually, been all alongside. 

In order that’s why it’s the way in which of upper nonduality, a nonduality that features duality and varied ranges of duality inside itself, subsumes them, in addition to in the end transcends them. 

So this doctrine is defined at size on this textual content, which we name The Recognition Sutras as a result of it consists of twenty sutras, with commentary by the creator of the unique sutras. So it’s one entire textual content, and to take the sutras out of that context is mistaken, and a few authors have executed that. However actually, they must be taken in gentle of the commentary on the sutras composed by the creator of the sutras. So he composed all of it as one singular textual content. And though it’s extremely profound, this textual content is definitely a abstract of much more abstruse philosophy. 

So you understand, there’s a practice in Nondual Shaiva Tantra known as the Recognition Faculty, the college on easy methods to acknowledge your self because the deity that you just have been beforehand worshipping, as if nearly separate. So Pratyabhijñā means recognition, the popularity of your consciousness because the common consciousness. So this abstract is definitely far simpler to learn than the huge physique of labor that it’s primarily based on, and, importantly, contains practices. So within the translation I’ve executed, The Recognition Sutras, if you happen to make it to chapter 18. That’s the place you get all these great practices. And that is form of counterintuitive for some trendy readers who need practices extra upfront, however within the conventional view, you must perceive the context by which these practices make sense. And so the view is laid out first after which comes the apply in the direction of the top of this elegant textual content. 

And by the way in which, this textual content was composed within the Kashmir Valley 1000 years in the past, and many individuals contemplate it part of the literature known as Kashmir Shaivism. And Kashmir Shaivism, is a little bit of a misnomer, as a result of it implies a practice that was particularly endemic to Kashmir, when actually, this custom was completely pan-Indian, not confined to Kashmir in any respect. However the identify Kashmir Shaivism happened within the twentieth century, to indicate the actually wonderful works of literature written by masters of Nondual Shaiva Tantra who occurred to reside in Kashmir. However they themselves very a lot knew that they have been commenting on and elaborating a pan-Indian Tantric custom that we name Shaiva Tantra.

MT: It’s additionally fascinating that these texts nearly didn’t make it all the way down to the trendy day. It’s a reasonably fascinating story how they even got here to know of them. Are you able to share somewhat little bit of that with us?

CW: Yeah, it’s attention-grabbing, as a result of plainly Buddhism, or Tantric Buddhism, specifically, survived the colonial interval significantly better, when actually, Tantric Buddhism, like the remainder of Buddhism was worn out in India with the Muslim conquests. And the explanation folks know of Tantric Buddhism beneath the identify Tibetan Buddhism right this moment is as a result of it bought exported to Tibet, and different areas as effectively, earlier than these conquests. So it’s necessary to grasp that the Tantric Buddhism that we all know in its Tibetan kind, existed in nearly equivalent types in India previous to that, and naturally, the Tibetans know this as a result of they know that their texts in Tibetan are almost all translations of Sanskrit originals, although, in fact, they added their very own commentaries in Tibetan as effectively. 

So simply as Tantric Buddhism was flourishing in India, so was Tantric Shaivism. And when the Muslim conquest got here, Tantric Buddhism was no extra in India. It was worn out extra simply as a result of it was extra institutionalized, you would say, and Shaiva Tantra was a bit extra grassroots. The apply context for Shaiva Tantra was primarily not establishments, however houses of owners just like the (24:19) Kula would collect within the dwelling of the guru or another senior practitioner. And never solely in these institutional contexts. 

So Shaiva Tantra survived the Muslim conquests, however in an attenuated kind, and continued to be attenuated over time as a result of within the context of Muslim rule, beforehand disparate teams that we now name Hindu form of glommed collectively into the development we name Hinduism. It’s an natural development, proper? That actually got here collectively solely within the final 800 years. 

And naturally, it is a entire can of worms as a result of folks in India get very upset at Westerners saying this as a result of they need to say, effectively Hinduism is 1000s of years previous. And naturally, the element components of Hinduism are 1000s of years previous, a lot of them, however the notion of a Hindu id, which is frequent to Vedic Brahmins and Vaishnavas and Shaivas, that solely happened beneath Muslim rule. 

So, the purpose is, although, that this means of attenuation continued till the Tantric custom was fragmented, the place to form of simplify it, the philosophy of Tantra survived primarily in Kashmir and a few different locations. A few of the yogic practices of Tantra survived in another areas like Rajasthan. And the ritual practices of Tantra survived primarily within the deep south of India, like Tamil Nadu and Kerala, and different locations. And a few of the sexual practices of Tantra survived solely in Japanese India, Bengal and Assam. 

And so the custom fragmented as a result of all of those parts I’ve simply talked about, philosophy and yoga and ritual and embodied or sexual practices have been all a part of one custom, however survived in several areas, and gave rise to those misperceptions that now we perceive it was one custom. And it’s after we deliver these disparate components again collectively once more, that we see the true energy of the Tantric revelation. 

And somebody would possibly say, However don’t we see it in Tibetan Buddhism as effectively? Properly, Sure, and no, as a result of Tibetan Buddhism is a extremely monasticised, and institutionalized model of Tantra, which doesn’t protect all of those components, actually. 

So every query you ask is, you understand, doubtlessly, I might go on for an hour, however they’re attempting to get these order responses. However yeah, these texts did survive. There’s a steady custom, even when it barely survived, proper? Nonetheless, there’s a steady custom of research of The Recognition Sutras and a lot of different texts all the way in which down to the current day. Although, as the nice Tantric scholar Alexa Sanderson says the custom handed via the attention of a needle, the place it actually nearly died out about 100 years in the past, and ever since has been slowly form of making a comeback on this new international context.

MT: Good. So that you’ve been mentioning the similarities between Nondual Shaiva Tantra and Vajrayana Buddhism. And we talked in regards to the ritual similarity, or we might nearly name it the method similarities, and so forth. However what do you see as a few of the main variations, like necessary variations? Most likely most people listening to this are concerned in some Buddhist custom or one other. And as you could have seen, I’ve been speaking about Vajrayana-style stuff, or Vajrayana practices, i.e. Buddhist Tantra practices, on this system not too long ago fairly a bit. So what are some actually necessary issues which can be totally different about these practices or traditions?

CW: Properly, that’s an attention-grabbing query, as a result of it form of relies upon which lineages you’re taking a look at; which lineages of Shaiva Tantra, and which lineages of Buddhist Tantra as a result of in some instances, it’s exhausting to search out any vital variations. In different instances, you possibly can. So the variety is actually from lineage to lineage somewhat than between these two very related Tantric traditions. Nonetheless, if we’re simply portray in fairly broad strokes, one huge distinction that always obtains is the function of bhakti or devotionalism, as a result of in Shaiva Tantra it very a lot has a spot. Once more, though it’s a radically nondual custom, no less than in some lineages, nonetheless, the function of devotion was honored and emphasised as a result of as I stated, whenever you’re experiencing your self as a person bodymind, you expertise that your individual final nature is someway one thing greater than oneself, proper, even when in different modes of apply or nondual, mystical states, that distinction fully evaporates. So anyone would possibly transfer between these totally different poles of expertise for fairly a while earlier than they lastly get established in steady nondual consciousness. 

And so, we see, for instance, an incredible authority within the sphere of Shaiva Tantra: the nice grasp Utpaladeva wrote radically nondual philosophy by which once more, he strongly asserted that what you’re calling divinity or god or Shiva or no matter identify you set is completely nothing however your individual true nature, that there isn’t any actual distinction there. And but the exact same creator wrote devotional poetry to Shiva. So this appears to be a paradox. However from his personal perspective, it wasn’t. And he even says in his poetry, issues like, to paraphrase: Oh Shiva, let me proceed to have this expertise of obvious separation from you in order that I can style the sweetness of this complete love and devotion of me for you, and also you for me, though I do know that you’re me, and I’m you.

So that may be a function that’s not fully absent from Vajrayana. However devotional modes of expression are a lot much less frequent within the Vajrayana custom, lets say. Regardless that in fact, Vajrayanists do carry out rituals as if a separation or distinction of self and deity have been actual, on some degree. So you understand, that’s one distinction. 

However after we’re trying on the philosophy, there will be no noticeable distinction, particularly if we’re evaluating sure lineages. So if we’re evaluating the teachings of Dzogchen, for instance, with the teachings of the  Krama lineage, a few of which seem in The Recognition Sutras, then it’s exhausting to see any actual distinction within the view in any respect. Let’s imagine there’s distinction within the apply, in fact, as a result of the institutionalization of Tantric Buddhism within the Tibetan context, implies that you must undergo these levels of apply which can be very strict. That means everybody has to do the preliminary practices earlier than they get entry to the next initiation that enables them to do totally different practices and so forth. Whereas within the Shaiva context, all the identical preliminaries are there, however anyone who has ample aptitude might skip sure steps or levels or preliminaries, you understand, they don’t essentially must do 1 million repetitions of no matter mantra or 100,000 prostrations or no matter. As a result of in Shaiva Tantra, it’s acknowledged that the aim of those practices is to deliver a few sure understanding or state of consciousness or expertise. And if that’s already there, then there’s no level in doing the practices that serve to deliver that about. 

So this isn’t, in fact, one thing you can decide for your self. However somewhat you want a guru. Historically, your guru says, Okay, you possibly can skip this step as a result of I can see you have already got the perception or the non-conceptual consciousness that this step is supposed to result in. And so possibly that additionally occurs in Vajrayana. However so far as I’ve seen, it’s rather more inflexible, I suppose, by way of the levels of apply that one has to undergo.

MT: Sure. And apparently, traditions like Dzogchen and Mahamudra that come from these deep Tantric roots discuss the identical tales of their earlier incarnations of those lineages, passed off in villages in a non-monastic setting and a way more fluid apply scenario the place the instructor is giving the scholar precisely what they want, somewhat than following like a prescribed route of apply, simply as you’re describing. So I believe they acknowledge that early on, it appeared extra like what you’re saying the scenario was in Nondual Shaiva Tantra, so attention-grabbing. 

This to me is fascinating, if you happen to’re in Dzogchen, or Mahamudra, or Vajrayana on the whole, and even Mahayana Buddhism, not to mention Vajrayana Buddhism, the completely central core idea that have to be realized is vacancy, proper? Collectively, in fact, with compassion, however vacancy performs this positively central function in the whole lot. And but, we don’t see an excessive amount of discuss vacancy in Nondual Shaiva Tantra, no less than not utilizing that phrase. And so I’m curious how does Nondual Shaiva Tantra form of method that very same understanding? Since these two are so related Buddhist Tantra and nondual Shaiva Tantra, I assume that they’re speaking about it differently, and but nonetheless addressing the identical thought.

CW: Yeah, effectively, actually, what you simply stated shouldn’t be true. (Laughter) That means to say that the usage of the time period vacancy, that within the Krama lineage—which is also called Mahartha, Mahanaya—has many names. That is essentially the most radically nondual lineage of Shaiva Tantra. And it’s actually essentially the most fascinating traditionally talking, as effectively, for all kinds of causes. However within the Krama lineage, you do have language of vacancy; shunya, shunyata, Mahāśūnya, consistently.

MT: I didn’t see numerous that in The Recognition Sutras. 

CW: Proper. As a result of The Recognition Sutras is weaving collectively teachings from a number of lineages, primarily the Trika and the Krama. And so the Krama is there as a form of esoteric core of the educating. However he’s additionally, you understand, writing for an viewers that’s not essentially absolutely initiated into these teachings. So it’s not completely obvious, however if you happen to learn Krama sources on their very own, then the emphasis on shunyata is fixed and you’ll even learn some passages that you’d assume if a Vajrayana individual learn them he can be like, Oh, that is in all probability from Vajrayana Tantra. 

So what’s the distinction? That is necessary as a result of, effectively, once more, generally possibly there isn’t a distinction, however generally there seems to be a distinction in that these Shaiva Tantrikas criticized the Buddhists as those that venerate the void as absolute, whereas we Shaiva Tantrikas, they are saying, are those that acknowledge that the last word realization is that of the total void, that of the vacancy which is concurrently full, or the fullness which is concurrently empty. And so, from the attitude of Shaiva Tantra, you expertise this radical void of pure consciousness, which is completely empty of all particularity, empty of all qualities, et cetera, et cetera. However you then’re speculated to transcend that, to the last word realization, which is that very same void, however now realized as pregnant with infinite risk. And the time period pregnant is typically even used when there’s a goddess-worshipping context within the background. 

And so the way in which Kṣemarāja places it in The Recognition Sutras is that we must always notice this vacancy as concurrently, completely full, completely empty, each, and neither vibrating in absolute simultaneity. And so the language there’s nearly harking back to Nagarjuna’s Madhyamika Path. As a result of, you understand, it’s, he says each and neither, as a result of he doesn’t need you to grasp it merely as a coincidence of obvious opposites. That it’s, actually, the true nature of actuality fully escapes the thoughts, and is totally non-conceptual. However after we enter into the thoughts and attempt to articulate what’s been realized, then we should use this paradoxical language of the vacancy which is full and the fullness which is empty. And naturally, right here the fullness in query is that this sense of elegant presence that spills over into any and all expertise in anyway. Now, possibly you possibly can inform me are there teachings on the Vajrayana aspect, that echo this? That someway say that the actual nature of vacancy can be good fullness? Do you see that form of language someplace there?

MT: I’m undecided in regards to the language of good fullness. However the concept that–to talk in a really tough method, very crude method–that the void or vacancy is giving start to the complete universe, and that the type of the world shouldn’t be in any method separate from this pristine purity of the transcendental void. That’s the central educating. And actually, we will name that the primordial purity and issues like that, the void facet, however one other phrase for it’s sugatagarbha, which you understand, completely effectively, means a womb. So giving start is a central picture. And the concept that kind and vacancy are usually not in any method separate is, in fact, central. So I believe that if I’m not working roughshod over the variations in language, I believe these are very related understandings.

CW: Yeah, completely. The purpose, no less than from the Shaiva Tantra perspective, is that the masters of the custom don’t need practitioners to think about that the last word actuality to be realized is wholly transcendent.

MT: Precisely. 

CW: Yeah. So in case you have Mahāśūnya, as your final factor, you possibly can think about that because the void which transcends all embodied expertise. And naturally, it does, nevertheless it additionally instantiates as all embodied expertise, and so there’s this invitation to expertise the luminous void, proper, in a deep samadhi state the place there’s no sensory expertise as per regular, that if you happen to notice that that void, that vacancy is, actually, luminous, not with literal gentle, however with the potentiality to turn out to be something, then whenever you enter again into sensual expertise, you might have the opportunity of recognizing that each one that you just’re experiencing is that very luminous void showing as kind.

MT: That’s proper, and it is a central educating in Vajrayana. And what to me is so thrilling about these deep nondual traditions. They’re not transcendent solely. In the event you get into, for instance, early Buddhism or if you happen to get into Advaita Vedanta, they’re strictly transcendent. The world is a nasty factor, it’s a delusion, and also you need to solely hand around in that transcendent Mahāśūnya. Yeah, proper. Like that’s the top purpose. Whereas these Tantric traditions are like, No, you are taking it additional, simply as in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, take it additional and see that the world is that this exuberant, fully energized expression of that void and isn’t separate from it in any method. So somewhat than rejecting the world and going into some form of transcendent monkhood, we reengage with expertise, reengage with the whole lot, reengage with the beautiful brocade of creation. Which leads me to what I believe is so attention-grabbing, additionally, with these nondual Shaiva Tantra practitioners and historic figures is that they’re very concerned with artwork and literature. And actually, they write treatises, on aesthetics, and so forth. The precise stuff of creation and expression is centrally attention-grabbing, no less than as I perceive it.

CW: Completely. And earlier than entering into that somewhat bit deeper, let me simply additionally point out that, you understand, if we’re speaking about shunyata, or vacancy, additionally within the purely philosophical sense of denoting a doctrine of interdependence, in fact, within the philosophy of Buddhism, vacancy and Pratītyasamutpāda are intimately linked, that the whole lot is empty of its personal inherent essence, as a result of it solely exists in relation to all of the phenomena that it’s interdependent with. And if we’re speaking about that model of the phrase vacancy, which is in fact, not unrelated to different usages, but when we’re speaking about that model, that too seems in these Shaiva Tantra teachings, particularly once more, of the Krama lineage, the place they are saying precisely because the Buddhists say, they are saying nothing has its personal impartial essence, though different Hindus, and that is in fact, once more, the issue with the designation Hindu, as a result of others which can be put within the Hindu basket, say the alternative, that every factor has its personal essence, that there’s a cow-ness that each one cows share, and so forth. However these Shaiva Tantrikas of the nondual stream have been saying that the whole lot has just one essence and that’s consciousness, not impartial essences. However the whole lot additionally expresses a special facet of that one, because of the way it’s embedded in all the assorted interrelationships and causes and circumstances. 

So the very cause that an object seems as an object and seems to have a special high quality from another object shouldn’t be as a result of it has a special essence however as a result of its place within the matrix of relationships is totally different. However the entire matrix of relationships itself is emanating from this timeless area of pure consciousness, that emanates, holds, and reabsorbs all phenomena. 

In order that additionally pertains to what you have been simply saying about being engaged within the aesthetic world, within the sensual world. As a result of on this greater realization, you don’t have to enter right into a transcendent state to expertise the transcendent. You really expertise the transcendent in each sensual expertise. So for the Shaiva Tantrikas, that’s the last word; to be engaged in sensual expertise and savor the individuality of every sensual expertise, whereas 100% feeling the reality of the truth that what precisely you’re experiencing, in that second, is the Supreme Absolute manifest as that. 

So after we use language like Supreme Absolute, it sounds so eliminated, however oblique expertise, there’s no contradiction. No matter you contact, style, scent, hear, really feel, take into consideration, sense, is the One showing in that kind. So the revelation of the simultaneous universality and particularity is form of the place it’s at, for the proponents of this custom. And that’s why you don’t have to surrender the world and so forth. Regardless that in fact, you do have to do practices that make it easier to to take a step again from the assorted misunderstandings that get triggered whenever you don’t but expertise the underlying transcendence. So it’s form of like, and possibly that is related in Vajrayana, nevertheless it’s form of such as you discover ways to expertise the transcendent, after which discover ways to expertise the transcendent within the imminent. So it’s form of very broadly talking, a two-stage course of: transcendence adopted by the expertise of the pervasion of the transcendent in all that was beforehand transcended. If that is smart.

MT: It makes good sense. This is a vital level that one type of nondualism we have been describing, what I in my very own colloquial language, known as Nondual 1, remains to be true, the transcendent sense of the void, or pure consciousness or no matter it’s one thing that we will contact, and actually, is required, with a purpose to acknowledge what I’d name Nondual 2, which is that this imminent high quality that you just’re describing. For most individuals, not everybody, however for most individuals, it’s going to be a two-stage course of. First letting go of a naive greedy across the kind world first, earlier than we will then re-engage with the world of kind on this radically remodeled method. So I believe it is smart. Once more, it’s not seen that method usually, or all the time…

CW: , we’re crystallizing one thing crucial right here as a result of that’s a very powerful critique that these nondual Tantric traditions have of different types of South Asian spirituality is that followers of Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra or earlier Buddhism or early Advaita Vedanta, they only take the one step to the transcendent, absolute, after which that’s their purpose to only keep there, transcended. And the Tantrikas are taking the second step of the overall collapsing of the excellence with out dropping the related options of every that’s to say, the expertise of the overall oneness of the transcendent and imminent, however not by decreasing both to the opposite, however by experiencing concurrently that the entire is in each half is one approach to put it. However in fact, no matter method we put it, it doesn’t seize it completely, as a result of that is merely past the classes that the thoughts can cope with.

 MT: Excellent. So let’s come on again to this aesthetic function, the engagement with the creation, that’s such a signature for these Nondual Shaiva Tantra traditions.

CW: Completely. Yeah. The best Tantric grasp in Shaivism, or the one who historical past has kind of determined was the best Tantric grasp, was this determine Abhinavagupta, who lived in Kashmir 1000 years in the past. And he’s well-known for not solely writing voluminous works on Tantric philosophy, ritual, and apply, but in addition for writing voluminous works on aesthetics, poetry, dance, and drama. And actually, on the earth of Sanskrit research, many students know him primarily in that area. And these are sometimes seen by students as separate domains. However in fact, for Abhinavagupta and a few of his associates, they weren’t separate domains in any respect. And this brings us to a extremely necessary level, which is that the entire–from this Shaiva Tantra perspective anyway–the entire level of getting the conclusion, that we’ve been speaking about in considerably philosophical phrases, is that it makes accessible to the practitioner the direct expertise of a form of elegant magnificence in all issues. 

And the way in which I like to clarify this, as you understand, within the Tantric custom, after we say the whole lot is God, and we do have that expression on the Shaiva aspect of the Tantric custom, particularly Na Shivam Vidyate Kvachit, nothing exists which isn’t God. However the issue is when Westerners hear this, they assume we’re saying the whole lot is sweet as a result of the Western conception of God is a lot related to the nice. And, in fact, that will be a loopy factor to say that the whole lot is sweet, struggle is sweet, and so forth, however that’s not what they’re saying. And so what do they imply, once they say the whole lot is God? Properly, they imply that, in fact, that the whole lot is a type of consciousness, as we’ve been saying. However in addition they imply that there’s the chance for the expertise of elegant magnificence, wherever and in every single place. And that this isn’t straightforward to have till you might have nondual realization. And you then discover that magnificence exists in types that you just’ve by no means suspected, that there’s a magnificence in decay and loss of life, in addition to in start and progress. That we will really expertise aesthetic rapture in just about any expertise of on a regular basis life, nevertheless mundane or nevertheless difficult. 

And so that is the assembly level of this aesthetic philosophy and this religious philosophy on this custom. And so within the aesthetic works, they’re known as Alankara Shastra in Sanskrit you get this educating that Abhinavagupta was a giant fan of, of 9 totally different types of magnificence. The so-called Navarasas, the 9 rasas the place rasa means aesthetic savor, 9 methods to savor magnificence, proper? As a result of rasa is expounded to phrases that imply yummy style, juiciness, and issues like that sweetness additionally, however right here it means aesthetic savor. 

However what’s attention-grabbing about this educating of the 9 rasas is that it contains classes which can be counterintuitive to Westerners, or most of them anyway. As a result of there’s the aesthetic savor attainable in romantic modes of expertise, and of poetry and dance and drama, and so forth. And there’s additionally the aesthetic savor attainable within the expertise of worry,

MT: The phobia rasa.

CW: Yeah, precisely. Now, I need to be very clear, although, as a result of nearly everybody who talks in regards to the topic or tries to speak about it, confuses and conflates rasas with emotional states, and they don’t seem to be. So the underlying emotional state is named the bhava. However the rasa is the expertise of magnificence, in affiliation with that emotional state. So in different phrases, if the artist transforms terror into artwork, then we’ll expertise a few of that worry via the artwork however in a transfigured method. So it’s the expertise of aesthetic savor, this skill to savor the gorgeous inside the scary or inside the romantic or inside the heroic or inside the comedic or inside even essentially the most shocking of all of the rasas maybe, is the disgusting. That which repels us will be skilled as a type of the fascination that consciousness has of itself showing in that kind. 

So this contemplation of the 9 rasas could be a very nondual contemplation that there’s this attainable expertise of astonishing, effectively, magnificence possibly isn’t fairly the best phrase as a result of it’s extra like aesthetic rapture, camatkāra, in Sanskrit, the fascination that consciousness has with itself showing in that kind. And that fascination has a component of what we’d name love. And that’s necessary, as a result of it’s not that we like scary experiences or disgusting experiences, however in a method, we love them. And this principle is definitely confirmed by even all our trendy artwork types, proper? As a result of if you happen to’re going to the films, or if you happen to’re taking a look at trendy artwork of assorted sorts, you then see, oh, wow, all these rasas are to be discovered there. And we as people like to be frightened in an aesthetic method. Not that each one horror films are aesthetic. Some are simply, you understand, they’re not artwork by any commonplace that I might consider, however some are, proper? 

And Abhinavagupta makes that distinction. He says it’s solely true artwork if it elevates you into this elegant state, which is cathartic, which is expansive. However that elevation can happen on the idea of any of those underlying feelings. So I’d really argue removed from a distinction of aesthetic and religious philosophy that we want the one to grasp the opposite. And to grasp what this custom means when it says, Nothing exists which isn’t God. And by the way in which, within the Sanskrit phrase there, the phrase meaning God can even imply blessing, proper? So nothing exists which isn’t doubtlessly a blessing if you happen to’re capable of finding the wonder in it. And that makes rather more sense than attempting to claim that truly, the whole lot’s actually good to know. 

So we’re not speculated to superimpose a optimistic story onto struggling, we’re supposed to search out the wonder in struggling. And certainly, we all know that’s attainable, as a result of a lot nice artwork and poetry has come out of struggling. And the educating right here is you don’t must be a poet, to search out the wonder in struggling, you would possibly must be a poet to articulate it. However you don’t must be a poet to search out it and expertise it. And I believe that’s a really, very highly effective educating. And possibly that’s one that’s distinctive to Shiva Tantra. I don’t know if there’s something comparable in Buddhist Tantra. I haven’t seen it no less than.

MT: There positively is, though I don’t assume it takes such a distinguished place. However you’ve ignited my curiosity in a technique, which is, are you aware of any, let’s say, poetry from this period, from the Abhinavagupta or Kṣemarāja eras that speaks to folks within the trendy West, that you would advocate? That isn’t simply so eliminated, that it will probably solely be loved with nice effort at adapting it and translating it not simply linguistically, however culturally?

CW: Completely. So there’s Utpaladeva’s poetry, all these varied hymns he wrote have been collected right into a kind known as The Shivastotravali: The Garland of Hymns to Shiva. There’s a few good translations of that on the market. However much more can be the poetry which isn’t but printed in good translations, however which is coming and individuals are engaged on it, myself and different students like Ben Williams and Hamza Stainton are engaged on this. And we hope to deliver these out extra. This poetry once more from this Krama lineage I hold mentioning as a result of I come to see it because the crown jewel of Shaiva Tantra, though it additionally comprises a lot materials that may be disturbing, in sure methods to some practitioners. And we will cowl that if you’d like. 

However the Krama has this elegant poetry, which weaves collectively devotion and religious or philosophical perception. And on this sense, the poetry is nearly distinctive as a result of it’s very wealthy in religious perception and reference to philosophical ideas. But it surely’s not heady poetry, it’s very evocative and delightful and devotional on the identical time. So you understand, ultimately, I need to deliver out a ebook with a number of translators concerned known as Tantric Hymns of Enlightenment, which presents this poetry of the Krama lineage. So bits and items of it are already on the market, right here and there within the public sphere, however not collected but and readily accessible. In order that’s one other huge matter to get into. And I want there have been good translations of all these supplies already out there, however simply to comprehend it’s there and extra of that might be popping out.

MT: And I simply must ask, what’s it that we’d discover disturbing in a few of these poems?

CW: Not within the poems, however within the lineage which produced them. So the Nondual Krama lineage can be essentially the most radically transgressive of all of the Shaiva Tantric lineages. And people issues go hand in hand from the attitude of Shaivism and I do know from Buddhism as effectively in some types, that the extra nondual you’re, the extra prepared you’re to transgress social norms. And that each one is smart, but in addition the Krama included form of quasi-shamanic practices. Now, some authorities interpret these by way of fully inside modes of consciousness exploring itself. However it is a form of interiorization of practices that definitely have been executed at one level anyway, quasi-shamanic practices of intense apply for a lot of, many hours and invoking yoginis and dakinis and making blood choices, usually from one’s personal physique, you understand, reducing open the left arm to make a blood providing to the yoginis in an effort to turn out to be one in all their gang because it have been, and obtain their blessings and notice that these yoginis specific potencies of consciousness which exist inside you as effectively. And these yoginis seem in these theriomorphic types, these half animal, half human types. And I’m simply scratching the floor of this type of wonderful, bizarre, and wild facet of the custom which definitely has these shamanic roots, which offers in useful possession, which some types of Buddhist Tantra do as effectively.

MT: That is samavesha, not simply merely avesha. Am I right?

CW: Extra the opposite method round, avesha refers to a possession and samavesha refers to a mystical expertise of immersion. The excellence shouldn’t be fairly so clear-cut. That’s principally the excellence. 

MT: Fascinating. This results in one other matter earlier, you talked about how Tantrism is a motion that seems kind of on the identical time in a bunch of various religions. It’s a kind that seems and this begs the query was the shape pre-existing in, say, ritual magic or shamanic practices of underclasses in India or one thing? And so I need to ask that query. Do you might have any sense or does scholarship have any good sense of the place this Tantric mode got here from within the first place?

CW: Yeah, this was a query that preoccupied a lot of students for many years, and what Sanderson lastly was in a position to present–you must learn some tons of of pages to evaluation all of the proof and grasp the argument–however he was in a position to present that Tantra emerged organically inside Shaivism after which propagated in a short time to Buddhism and to different non secular traditions. However that it’s a form of logical and natural outgrowth or additional growth, I ought to say, of some themes and traits that have been already there in Shaivism, together with these practices with shamanic roots. So there’s these proto-tantric practitioners known as Kapalicas. 

MT: The cranium carriers. 

CW: Precisely. They flourished, particularly round yr 600, and for a short while after that, too. Yeah, they carried cranium bowls, they’d eat and drink out of cranium bowls. They have been ascetics, although they weren’t house owners. Proper, and that’s, in fact, a giant distinction. When Tantra developed, it developed as a householder, primarily a householder custom. However these proto-Tantrikas known as Kapalikas–and so they glided by different names as effectively–their practices definitely had a few of these quasi-tribal quasi-shamanic roots. And apparently, the options of these Kapalikas, and so they have been 100%, you understand, Shaiva, however all of these options migrated into Tantric Buddhism as effectively. So, the carrying of the bone ornaments comes from these Kapalikas, and a lot of different options that lots of people assume, are very a lot specific to Tibetan Buddhism. However they really come from this very early type of Shaivism. That’s not but Tantric, however as proto-Tantric, and did embrace some type of sexual ritual or consort apply. It didn’t but have this subtle nondual philosophy, it didn’t but have key elements of Tantric apply, like deity yoga. So it’s not but Tantric. There’s much more that could possibly be stated about that. 

However Buddhists who’re form of dogmatically dedicated to their imaginative and prescient of Buddhism actually get uncomfortable and even upset when this argument is introduced that the Tantric apply they maintain so expensive was initially borrowed by Buddhists from Shaivas. However the proof is actually plentiful. And it’s to not say that they only copied–I imply, they definitely did copy some practices–however they re-instantiated these practices in a Buddhist mode. They made them into very a lot Buddhist variations of these practices over time, you understand, so one might argue that they have been open-minded sufficient to comprehend, hey, what these Shaivas are doing over right here appears to be working. Let’s give it a attempt too. 

However we all know from the historic document that Tantra moved via the Buddhist sphere in India very quickly as a result of now we have information of two totally different Chinese language pilgrims who got here to India solely two generations aside. The primary one doesn’t point out Tantra within the early six tons of after which the second within the late six tons of says, oh, all of the monasteries in India are doing these mandala initiations, they’re doing these Tantric teachings, they’ve these Tantric mantras. And, you understand, he’s like, Wow, what’s this new factor? And that is simply within the area of fifty years, nearly each main monastery in India began practising Tantra. And this isn’t simply monasteries, however that’s the place now we have information.

MT: Wonderful. So Hareesh, Christopher Wallis, the place can folks be taught extra about your work?

CW: Yeah. , though our dialog has been very philosophical, and historic, in some methods, I simply need to point out that, for me, all of that’s so fascinating, however none of it will have worth if it wasn’t for the ability of apply. And as a instructor, you understand, I can generally train in educational modes, however I’m most taken with educating in these practitioner contexts. What’s most enjoyable for me is seeing folks have these realizations in an embodied and nonconceptual method. Simply whenever you discuss them in phrases, in fact, it’s gonna sound terribly conceptual and philosophical. However as you understand, the direct expertise shouldn’t be heady in any respect. It’s not within the mind. It’s in consciousness, changing into conscious of itself. And the embodied expertise of that. That’s the place the actual juice is, you understand. 

So I simply need to point out for whoever’s listening that my educating once I’m working with practitioners is definitely fairly sensible, I believe my college students would say, and so if anybody’s taken with exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra as a apply, not only a philosophy, then I’ve a number of assets and instruments for folks. Primarily on my web site, tantrailluminated.org, which has a studying portal, we name it, that introduces you to all these programs and teachings, together with apply teachings that go pretty in-depth. So I’d say, you understand, I’ve a lot of tasks and books within the works and totally different web sites additionally. However that one tantrailluminated.org is the principle place for delving into these teachings.

MT: Past the books, the little little bit of your materials that I’ve encountered on the net has been actually, actually top quality and really cool. So I’d extremely advocate that. All proper. In order that’s it for right this moment. Thanks for approaching the Deconstructing Your self podcast, Hareesh. Actually, actually respect you taking the time.

CW: And I respect your podcast a lot. I’ve listened to possibly a dozen episodes. And I believe it’s a incredible lower above the same old within the podcast world. And I hope we will discuss extra as a result of I do know there’s many, many different matters we will discover and customary pursuits that now we have and you understand, would possibly even be attention-grabbing to discover our apply historical past somewhat bit respectively, for instance, amongst many different matters.

MT: Completely. Let’s make a date for that.

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